The fourth of July is here and it is a very testy time to say the least with the government and Christianity.
On everyone's mind right now is the role of government. What did it do? What should it have done etc? How should Christians react? Paul gives an interesting summary of the purpose of the Government and he calls it God's avenger. This doesn't so much hit on the ruling yet but setting some ground work for the discussion to happen. I know that Paul's discussion doesn't quite get to what everyone is so mad about right now. This isn't the hot topic of the day right now, but, the reach of the government is. In order to get there though we need to see what its purpose is supposed to be. We need to look at Romans 13.
I started writing about this honestly because I occasionally see someone
comment about how Christians shouldn't be for the death penalty because
we are pro life and believe we are made in the image of God. Rightly
so, we are. But so much has happened historically that this will be a two part-er.
On more reflection on my previous needing a hero blog and our desire of justice, it got me thinking about another hero. Or rather an anti-hero The Punisher. I was familiar with the comic book character and so I watched the movie a few years ago and I remember struggling with a line in the movie where he says "It is not vengeance but punishment." In other words he was justified because it was not a personal vendetta but administering the due desert.
At the time I remember struggling with how it was any different, mostly because he was entirely spurned on by the personal loss of his family. But I do understand the intent. Vengeance in the our typical sense is reactionary despite justice, whereas punishment is in direct response measured by desert.
Any vengeance is in a sense retribution but our typical vernacular tends to be more along the lines of a personal tit for tat, or payback with righting the wrong of personal feelings. True desert involves righting the wrong as in restitution, it is a measured response to the wrongdoing. The problems of vengeance tend to be emotional and thus the solution may be greater than the crime.
For example: "He should be in prison, but I want him dead."
This as I have said before is why God instructed the rule "An eye for an eye". So the punishment is measured. God is about just measures, remember?
So at the time I didn't understand it for the movie, I am not sure if it conveyed the idea well, but I do understand the difference in principle. The idea is that sometimes people escape through the system and true justice cannot be levied so the Punisher brings the desert for the crimes. This is the very premise of the Steven Seagal movie Above the Law (1988).
Now while I can grant them the premise for the fictional comic book character and for a movie, this doesn't work in real life. When real people do this they also have to give account.
A more realistic yet still fictional story tried to portray this as well. The movie A Time to Kill (1996) from a John Grisham book dealt with this exact premise. A Father whose daughter was brutally raped knew that the accused were going to be let go because of racial tension so he took it upon himself to punish them. He shot them both dead and the movie plays out about his own trial. Despite his own obvious guilt he feels justified because the system failed. His guilt is undeniable the question becomes should he be prosecuted? In the end he isn't because the jury realizes he acted as probably any father would because he was himself denied justice. A very good movie.
But the obvious point is sometimes the system isn't enough. Now this system is in fact what God has left behind to be his own avenger. Romans 13 calls the government a servant of God for the common good. The government is referred to as his avenger who carries out God's own wrath on the wrongdoer. In other words God is about punitive desert.
So what are the common responses?
People are the image of God. God told us we are made in his image and he believes in the death penalty. God enacted the penalty many times and had his people do the same. God is not so concerned about his image bearers that he refrains from snuffing them out when they corrupt his image by offense. But that was the Old Testament. Well in New Testament rightly so that responsibility has been handed over to God's Avengers: the Governments. Their primary purpose is to restrain evil and this is done by the sword (by force). But what about the woman caught in adultery? The scenario was that the mob wanted Jesus to allow them to put her to death. They actually didn't have the right under Roman law to act such. There was no formal trial and the man was mysteriously absent. But primarily Jesus' purpose was to save lives not destroy them. Jesus reminds his own disciples this in Luke 9:56 when they wanted to call down fire on his opponents. His purpose was to bring the gospel, his mission from God was to spread news of the Kingdom. It was not his responsibility to act under Old Testament laws when the New Covenant was being put in place. However he did teach Paul to instruct that Governments did hold that power as his servants. Why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong? Because death is a great message. Really it is. The death penalty serves as an object lesson for sure but first and foremost is a just desert. It is also to curb evil. God gave us the example of punitive justice.
I would further point out the punishment for our sins was punitive; the death penalty. Furthermore when reading the New Testament at this point God is delaying punishment til his return for the purposes of showing mercy 2 Peter 3:15. God wants to grant grace in forgiveness through his Son. But a time will come when he shows up and the time for mercy will have expired. This is why everyone wants to put a date on the apocalypse. Read the New Testament about the Day of the Lord. God's justice is about the death penalty. The wadges of sin is death. God does offer a way out but if people don't take it then they deny the savior end up paying it themselves.
Now the purpose of this blog is not to defend the death penalty, but to advance the notion that sometimes justice is punitive. Justice doesn't really care about the rehabilitation, that is for a separate office. Rehabilitation is on the individual. A system can be put in place to help, but rehabilitation is not justice. Rehabilitation is necessary for a society to function but it is a luxury. A luxury that we all very much hope that people take advantage of, but it cannot take the place of just desert. God demands justice, he is not as much interested about his avenger creating programs to reintegrate the people into society, the avenger's job is justice. Rehabilitation is the Church's job. It is called the Gospel.
Before we get caught up in the why's of this or that tragedy let's not skip over the just desert. When we skip over desert we compound the trespass, multiply the victims, and encourage repeat offenses. The punishment must fit the crime after-all.
Without punishment we breed lawlessness. And thus we get a country that hates accountability and screams for little more than anarchy. If we need to change the system we should use the system lawfully or else our own lawlessness brings about more sin. Again in chapter 13 of Romans we are told to not resist the government as they act as the avengers or else we are found to be fighting against God himself.
If the Avengers go bad, they will give an account to new governments and ultimately to God. Avengers will give an account. Just as God punished those he used to punish Israel. Avengers are not above the law as Steven Seagal taught us.
Thus we leave punishment to the government and we leave the government to hands of God. But what about when they violate God's law? Well we can look at that next time.
thanks
Showing posts with label Romans. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Romans. Show all posts
Friday, July 3, 2015
Thursday, May 28, 2015
It was Inevitible
Before I begin let me say that enough ire has been exchanged and if possible I want to avoid that and be as cordial as possible. But some things need to be said when others have been already. This conversation has been clouded for so long that nothing of substance gets through our passions much anymore. But in an effort to bring something new to the table I will say that I harbor no resentment for the opposition. But a Christian must take a stand because we will all give account.
Now having said that I don't usually like to comment on trends and politics specifically, but this one is so inherently Christian that I knew eventually I would write about it at some point and that time is now. I am not trying to be melodramatic but once again Rob Bell has stepped into the light and shared what he knows will be popular with society and rub the Christian community the wrong way. Thankfully I wasn't blogging back when Love Wins came out so I was then spared a comment, but that and this share a common theme. Now I don't want to judge the guy's heart because I do not know him, but his technique seems to consistently be based around gathering a following rather than presenting the true Christian way of thinking.
And that is the problem for me anyway, not him, but the way that Christianity is affected. The Gospel's primary message is that because of Adam's sin mankind is infected and needs a redeemer. Part of the way that God draws people to repentance is his goodness to us in the offering of his Son. This was for the payment of our sins if we will only turn to him. Christianity, you know John 3:16?
So Rob Bell says "We're moments away, [from accepting gay marriage]" "I think culture is already there and the church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense..."
Hmm...If the church's primary concern was cultural relevance than he is right. If the church's primary goal was mass appeal then he is right. If the church's primary goal is making friends and networking then he is right. But if the church's primary concern is the promulgation of the Gospel then he is wrong. And while we are at it, the Gospel's best defense is also from letters 2000 year ago, should we abandon this cultural irrelevance as well?
See part of the problem is that this should be an in-house discussion. Sin in the world is always going to be there, it is not the church's job to run around cleaning everyone's nose. And if we are prepared to alter the Bible based on what an on-looking and free-commenting world says then our Bible will end up being much smaller. Thomas Jefferson already did this with the miraculous, the Jesus seminar did this with beads, now do we really want to do this with social justice issues? So because this is an in-house discussion it shouldn't matter what the world, or society, or fallen man thinks about it. But the church needs to understand it's own doctrine. When God is clear on something then his people need to fall in line. That is if they want to be a part of the kingdom. If not then that is your choice, but stop standing up under the banner of Christendom and muddying the waters.
I know that this discussion, if I can call it that, is so polarizing that it hurts and distances people. I know that the church has had a big part in that. We have taken the healing balm of the Gospel and sometimes fashioned it into a hammer. We have failed to allow the Holy Spirit to do his job and convict the world of sin. Instead we have sometimes taken up the banner of the sin police and tried to force our worldview onto people who were not asking. Hearing that your sin distances you from God when you are not looking for God is angering to say the least. The problem is now that the discussion is so out in the open that we cannot communicate it in such a way that it doesn't sound like an imposition or an attack.
I know that this is will not be popular for me to say. My intention is not to harm but I have a responsibility to clarify when the Bible is misrepresented on issues the world would rather not be said. But this is especially true when the problem is so linked to what distances people from God. Paul speaks in Romans of homosexuality as the capstone of fallen man in his journey away from God. This is not to say that homosexuality is the worst possible sin and there is no hope. That is not the message! But the sin of homosexuality is a hallmark of a society that has turned its back on God. Our society is in trouble and that is why the Gospel is so important.
The church's current problem in America is that the country is responding to the Gospel as it was always going to, as Jesus promised the world would, with hate. Now unfortunately though, there is a bigger problem, it has been unmasked and revealed in our hearts. It is that we as Christians do not like that fact that Christianity is now historically on the unpopular side of culture. That's it. We loved being Christians when it was cool and popular and our politics felt so God honoring and uplifting and our wars felt like God's hand was behind them all. But what has happened is we are no longer honored in the public eye. We are pariah. We do not like it. But then we are in danger of Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Rather than recognize the inevitability that the Gospel was always going to be at odds with the world, we have instead decided we have a PR problem. Why? because we want mass appeal again. But the Gospel is only going to reach those who the Spirit draws. In doing so it may just leave many of us without friends as Jesus has already said to his followers. Mathew 10:16-25
Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
The solution is not to soften the Gospel and hire a PR agent, but to realize the stakes of what we signed up for. The answer is not to capitulate like Rob Bell is predicting the church will do. Unfortunately though he is right in that some have already and some will continue to do so. But that is not the Biblical response. Paul does not pull punches when he presents the condition of the world and it's need for Christ. This is the problem, Rob Bell isn't telling the world what the Bible says, he is telling people what they want to hear. He is trying to be a church PR representative and he is succeeding, at least for his own cause. But it is not a Christian position to ignore sin. Sin is what points people to God's goodness which leads them to repentance and them being born again. God's goodness is in his receiving sinners.
This is the point. I wish we could all be honest and say "This is Christian truth and you don't have to believe it". Instead we want to have our Christian cake and eat it too. We somehow think that disciples are supposed to be liked by the world, but Christ himself told us that we would not. We make the false dichotomy that because Jesus was liked by his followers that therefore everyone should like us. But the truth of the matter is that those who were following Jesus liked him, and those who were not following him did not. He was put to death remember? In the end more hated him than followed him. We should not be overly concerned with being liked, because Jesus wasn't liked.
But, when we are it should be for the right reasons. Because people are hearing the same message, the one that they didn't agree with when Jesus spoke it. Part of being a Christian is being at odds with the world, because we are jerks? No. But because our testimony is as Jesus' was; that all people need a savior from their futures apart from Christ. Jesus calls us to take up a cross remember?
In the same vein I wish homosexuals would be honest and say "This is the life we want to live and it doesn't matter what you believe." But instead they also want to be accepted and, rightfully so, doesn't everybody? But they shouldn't expect us to fault on our Biblical truth any more than we should expect them to want to fault on their lifestyle. We should not expect non-Christians to live as Christians. Nor should they expect Christians to agree with non-Christians especially about sin.
Where we are in society is where the church was inevitably going to be in relationship with the culture, on opposing sides.
Might we actually achieve a more peaceful tolerance if we were more honest with our positions? But the demand that the other side agree or accept the other side will only continue the fighting, or worse as Rob Bell predicted make hypocrites of those who capitulate to societal whims. When does the church ever give into societal pressure on issues of sin? I know the common argument is what about slavery? Well the obvious answers is those using the Bible to defend slavery were wrong. The Biblical system of slavery was to handle debt and included a time of jubilee (freedom) It was different. It included rules for treating the slaves (humanely). It was different. Paul encourages Philemon to grant freedom to Onesimus. It was different. Owner's were encouraged to treat slaves well and slaves were encouraged to get their freedom if legally possible. The New Testament furthers these treatments. Slavery was a reality in the world but the Biblical way to handle slaves was very different. Remember, those wanting to end slavery were using the Bible as well, just better.
We have been fighting a cultural war and loosing, as we were always going to. The battlefront for the Christian is not in public relations but in presentation of the gospel. All we can do is hold to it whether society likes it or not.
Now this is turning out to be longer than I had hoped but let me take a moment to talk about rightfully placed ire in regards to Christians. This is not an excuse for what has also happened; where Christians forget that their truth is supposed to be seasoned with salt. That is love. Christians do not get a free ticket to bulldoze those who don't agree. If we cannot communicate in Christian love than we deserve all the ire we get. If we treat people poorly then expect opposition. Also if we desire to be loved and accepted when we bring a message that Jesus tells us is offensive, we will be frustrated. But, if we get anger as the result of an honest and humble presentation of the Gospel, all we can do is thank God for the opportunity to share.
Thank God for the opportunity to share
Now having said that I don't usually like to comment on trends and politics specifically, but this one is so inherently Christian that I knew eventually I would write about it at some point and that time is now. I am not trying to be melodramatic but once again Rob Bell has stepped into the light and shared what he knows will be popular with society and rub the Christian community the wrong way. Thankfully I wasn't blogging back when Love Wins came out so I was then spared a comment, but that and this share a common theme. Now I don't want to judge the guy's heart because I do not know him, but his technique seems to consistently be based around gathering a following rather than presenting the true Christian way of thinking.
And that is the problem for me anyway, not him, but the way that Christianity is affected. The Gospel's primary message is that because of Adam's sin mankind is infected and needs a redeemer. Part of the way that God draws people to repentance is his goodness to us in the offering of his Son. This was for the payment of our sins if we will only turn to him. Christianity, you know John 3:16?
So Rob Bell says "We're moments away, [from accepting gay marriage]" "I think culture is already there and the church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense..."
Hmm...If the church's primary concern was cultural relevance than he is right. If the church's primary goal was mass appeal then he is right. If the church's primary goal is making friends and networking then he is right. But if the church's primary concern is the promulgation of the Gospel then he is wrong. And while we are at it, the Gospel's best defense is also from letters 2000 year ago, should we abandon this cultural irrelevance as well?
See part of the problem is that this should be an in-house discussion. Sin in the world is always going to be there, it is not the church's job to run around cleaning everyone's nose. And if we are prepared to alter the Bible based on what an on-looking and free-commenting world says then our Bible will end up being much smaller. Thomas Jefferson already did this with the miraculous, the Jesus seminar did this with beads, now do we really want to do this with social justice issues? So because this is an in-house discussion it shouldn't matter what the world, or society, or fallen man thinks about it. But the church needs to understand it's own doctrine. When God is clear on something then his people need to fall in line. That is if they want to be a part of the kingdom. If not then that is your choice, but stop standing up under the banner of Christendom and muddying the waters.
I know that this discussion, if I can call it that, is so polarizing that it hurts and distances people. I know that the church has had a big part in that. We have taken the healing balm of the Gospel and sometimes fashioned it into a hammer. We have failed to allow the Holy Spirit to do his job and convict the world of sin. Instead we have sometimes taken up the banner of the sin police and tried to force our worldview onto people who were not asking. Hearing that your sin distances you from God when you are not looking for God is angering to say the least. The problem is now that the discussion is so out in the open that we cannot communicate it in such a way that it doesn't sound like an imposition or an attack.
I know that this is will not be popular for me to say. My intention is not to harm but I have a responsibility to clarify when the Bible is misrepresented on issues the world would rather not be said. But this is especially true when the problem is so linked to what distances people from God. Paul speaks in Romans of homosexuality as the capstone of fallen man in his journey away from God. This is not to say that homosexuality is the worst possible sin and there is no hope. That is not the message! But the sin of homosexuality is a hallmark of a society that has turned its back on God. Our society is in trouble and that is why the Gospel is so important.
The church's current problem in America is that the country is responding to the Gospel as it was always going to, as Jesus promised the world would, with hate. Now unfortunately though, there is a bigger problem, it has been unmasked and revealed in our hearts. It is that we as Christians do not like that fact that Christianity is now historically on the unpopular side of culture. That's it. We loved being Christians when it was cool and popular and our politics felt so God honoring and uplifting and our wars felt like God's hand was behind them all. But what has happened is we are no longer honored in the public eye. We are pariah. We do not like it. But then we are in danger of Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Rather than recognize the inevitability that the Gospel was always going to be at odds with the world, we have instead decided we have a PR problem. Why? because we want mass appeal again. But the Gospel is only going to reach those who the Spirit draws. In doing so it may just leave many of us without friends as Jesus has already said to his followers. Mathew 10:16-25
Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.
The solution is not to soften the Gospel and hire a PR agent, but to realize the stakes of what we signed up for. The answer is not to capitulate like Rob Bell is predicting the church will do. Unfortunately though he is right in that some have already and some will continue to do so. But that is not the Biblical response. Paul does not pull punches when he presents the condition of the world and it's need for Christ. This is the problem, Rob Bell isn't telling the world what the Bible says, he is telling people what they want to hear. He is trying to be a church PR representative and he is succeeding, at least for his own cause. But it is not a Christian position to ignore sin. Sin is what points people to God's goodness which leads them to repentance and them being born again. God's goodness is in his receiving sinners.
This is the point. I wish we could all be honest and say "This is Christian truth and you don't have to believe it". Instead we want to have our Christian cake and eat it too. We somehow think that disciples are supposed to be liked by the world, but Christ himself told us that we would not. We make the false dichotomy that because Jesus was liked by his followers that therefore everyone should like us. But the truth of the matter is that those who were following Jesus liked him, and those who were not following him did not. He was put to death remember? In the end more hated him than followed him. We should not be overly concerned with being liked, because Jesus wasn't liked.
But, when we are it should be for the right reasons. Because people are hearing the same message, the one that they didn't agree with when Jesus spoke it. Part of being a Christian is being at odds with the world, because we are jerks? No. But because our testimony is as Jesus' was; that all people need a savior from their futures apart from Christ. Jesus calls us to take up a cross remember?
In the same vein I wish homosexuals would be honest and say "This is the life we want to live and it doesn't matter what you believe." But instead they also want to be accepted and, rightfully so, doesn't everybody? But they shouldn't expect us to fault on our Biblical truth any more than we should expect them to want to fault on their lifestyle. We should not expect non-Christians to live as Christians. Nor should they expect Christians to agree with non-Christians especially about sin.
Where we are in society is where the church was inevitably going to be in relationship with the culture, on opposing sides.
Might we actually achieve a more peaceful tolerance if we were more honest with our positions? But the demand that the other side agree or accept the other side will only continue the fighting, or worse as Rob Bell predicted make hypocrites of those who capitulate to societal whims. When does the church ever give into societal pressure on issues of sin? I know the common argument is what about slavery? Well the obvious answers is those using the Bible to defend slavery were wrong. The Biblical system of slavery was to handle debt and included a time of jubilee (freedom) It was different. It included rules for treating the slaves (humanely). It was different. Paul encourages Philemon to grant freedom to Onesimus. It was different. Owner's were encouraged to treat slaves well and slaves were encouraged to get their freedom if legally possible. The New Testament furthers these treatments. Slavery was a reality in the world but the Biblical way to handle slaves was very different. Remember, those wanting to end slavery were using the Bible as well, just better.
We have been fighting a cultural war and loosing, as we were always going to. The battlefront for the Christian is not in public relations but in presentation of the gospel. All we can do is hold to it whether society likes it or not.
Now this is turning out to be longer than I had hoped but let me take a moment to talk about rightfully placed ire in regards to Christians. This is not an excuse for what has also happened; where Christians forget that their truth is supposed to be seasoned with salt. That is love. Christians do not get a free ticket to bulldoze those who don't agree. If we cannot communicate in Christian love than we deserve all the ire we get. If we treat people poorly then expect opposition. Also if we desire to be loved and accepted when we bring a message that Jesus tells us is offensive, we will be frustrated. But, if we get anger as the result of an honest and humble presentation of the Gospel, all we can do is thank God for the opportunity to share.
Thank God for the opportunity to share
Thursday, January 22, 2015
With Respect to the Comedian (This is not That)
The timing of this couldn't be better or worse depending on how you think about it. The tragedy in France over a cartoon of Mohamed. Lives lost. This is not that. A Christian will not attack you if you mock Christ. But a Christian may respond, this is that. This was not inspired from France but the comparison is obvious at this point, so why not just get it out there.
Open scene from My Blue Heaven 1990.
(Barney tells a joke and everybody laughs except Hannah)
Hannah Stubbs: I see that it's funny. I have a sense of humor.
Barney: Of course you have a sense of humor. Everyone thinks they do, even people who don't.
I think this situation above is true, so as ironic as it is I wanted to say that I have a great sense of humor. Furthermore Christians have a sense of humor as well; we recognize that the Bible contains many humorous things. Some of those are simply because of the distance of time and culture that they sound funny to us. So sure some things are funny in the Bible. But there is a difference from that, and outright mocking the content and the people who do believe in the Bible.
It's the whole laughing with or laughing at thing. So I do admit I get annoyed when people attack Christianity when there is nobody to defend or at least respond in kind. Especially when it is done from a major platform. So I will respond with the small platform that an insignificant blog allows me...
I recently was watching a comedy bit on Netflix which I do not usually do. But I did and then I shut it off. The host was basically commenting on verses and pointing out how weird and stupid they sound to a modern audience. Now it is a very easy thing to read passages out of context and then comment about how horrible it is or how oppressing it was and how God is a...
I won't go into the specifics because the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of the text. We didn't even get out of the gate with this one.
I know an obvious response is it was a joke..but humor does influence, and even jokes communicate a way of viewing the world. A worldview that communicates that to believe in the Bible is ridiculous. While people are free to believe this, I am also free to point out that their understanding about the Bible may be flawed. They can choose not to believe it all day long, but most people are not simply choosing to not believe, they are looking for justifications for not having to choose. My job is then to challenge those justifications and leave them in a place of only personal volition and not excuses. As 2 Corinthians 10:5 says:
5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ
So make your jokes but I will make my reply, so...
As I said it is too easy to anachronistically scrutinize and criticize the Bible. What is not easy to do is actually study it. To actually learn what it is communicating to the audience when it was written. For us today we are 3rd party readers and we have to take the time to understand not only the literary context but the world view it is communicating and also the world in which it was communicating to.
I am not saying do not ask questions, please do.
Because it is too easy to judge it on our standards. We have to understand that it was not written to 21st century post Christan America, nor for that matter was it written to 20th century Christian America. It benefits readers outside of the ancient near east as they approach it humbly and let it speak across time as it is meant to be heard. That is not to say it does not have some hard things to say to us, it does. But we cannot simply find offensive verses and then come to conclusions when we are ignorant of the world when it was written and the worldview it is creating.
I say creating because without a doubt the Bible has literally shaped the world. It happened because it challenged and inspired and caused people to grow. It drew people into relationship with God. That is the point. It may sound archaic to us, but it changes lives for the better. The Bible is God's revelation, so in one sense it isn't going to completely satisfy man, because it is completely other. It is God condescending to our level to communicate something to beings that he created. It is like what Paul reminds his readers in Roman 9 of their place in relation to the maker.
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay?...
Job had a similar epiphany when he wanted answers from God in Job 38.
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Now obviously there is the issue of competing worldviews. The comedian has one, but we must understand the Bible is establishing quite another. God is not simply a character of the Bible, he is God, all powerful, all knowing, all loving. But the Bible gets to define how these work. If you aren't willing to engage the worldview the Bible is communicating then please refrain from commenting. If you want to challenge its view then at least attempt to be credible when you do so, learn its preface.
Feel free to disagree all you want, but first remember Proverbs 18:13.
He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him.
This is a true statement whether you believe the bible or not.
Next time you reach for an easy mark such as an out of context passage from the Old Testament just because it sounds crazy, ask yourself "Do I understand what I am reading?" As Luke records the Ethiopian Eunuch did in Acts 8. Maybe even pick up a commentary to see if that means what you think it means. Because perhaps as Inigo reminded Vizzini "I don't think it means what you think it means". Now obviously fact checking is more work, and you are not doing this for theology, this for a bit, so you are not going to worry about fact checking.
But then I am not going to laugh. Cheap shots are easy but informed humor is clever.
So yes comedian the Bible is an easy target, and nobody will threaten your life for it, but please study before you speak it will make your comedy better. As it is you sound like a kid who wants to fit in with the cool group, the one that has decided Christianity is out this season. And while it may be true that Christianity is out this season, the conversation still needs to happen among thoughtful individuals.
Christians welcome comedy but this was not that.
thanks
Open scene from My Blue Heaven 1990.
(Barney tells a joke and everybody laughs except Hannah)
Hannah Stubbs: I see that it's funny. I have a sense of humor.
Barney: Of course you have a sense of humor. Everyone thinks they do, even people who don't.
I think this situation above is true, so as ironic as it is I wanted to say that I have a great sense of humor. Furthermore Christians have a sense of humor as well; we recognize that the Bible contains many humorous things. Some of those are simply because of the distance of time and culture that they sound funny to us. So sure some things are funny in the Bible. But there is a difference from that, and outright mocking the content and the people who do believe in the Bible.
It's the whole laughing with or laughing at thing. So I do admit I get annoyed when people attack Christianity when there is nobody to defend or at least respond in kind. Especially when it is done from a major platform. So I will respond with the small platform that an insignificant blog allows me...
I recently was watching a comedy bit on Netflix which I do not usually do. But I did and then I shut it off. The host was basically commenting on verses and pointing out how weird and stupid they sound to a modern audience. Now it is a very easy thing to read passages out of context and then comment about how horrible it is or how oppressing it was and how God is a...
I won't go into the specifics because the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of the text. We didn't even get out of the gate with this one.
I know an obvious response is it was a joke..but humor does influence, and even jokes communicate a way of viewing the world. A worldview that communicates that to believe in the Bible is ridiculous. While people are free to believe this, I am also free to point out that their understanding about the Bible may be flawed. They can choose not to believe it all day long, but most people are not simply choosing to not believe, they are looking for justifications for not having to choose. My job is then to challenge those justifications and leave them in a place of only personal volition and not excuses. As 2 Corinthians 10:5 says:
5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ
So make your jokes but I will make my reply, so...
As I said it is too easy to anachronistically scrutinize and criticize the Bible. What is not easy to do is actually study it. To actually learn what it is communicating to the audience when it was written. For us today we are 3rd party readers and we have to take the time to understand not only the literary context but the world view it is communicating and also the world in which it was communicating to.
I am not saying do not ask questions, please do.
Because it is too easy to judge it on our standards. We have to understand that it was not written to 21st century post Christan America, nor for that matter was it written to 20th century Christian America. It benefits readers outside of the ancient near east as they approach it humbly and let it speak across time as it is meant to be heard. That is not to say it does not have some hard things to say to us, it does. But we cannot simply find offensive verses and then come to conclusions when we are ignorant of the world when it was written and the worldview it is creating.
I say creating because without a doubt the Bible has literally shaped the world. It happened because it challenged and inspired and caused people to grow. It drew people into relationship with God. That is the point. It may sound archaic to us, but it changes lives for the better. The Bible is God's revelation, so in one sense it isn't going to completely satisfy man, because it is completely other. It is God condescending to our level to communicate something to beings that he created. It is like what Paul reminds his readers in Roman 9 of their place in relation to the maker.
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay?...
Job had a similar epiphany when he wanted answers from God in Job 38.
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Now obviously there is the issue of competing worldviews. The comedian has one, but we must understand the Bible is establishing quite another. God is not simply a character of the Bible, he is God, all powerful, all knowing, all loving. But the Bible gets to define how these work. If you aren't willing to engage the worldview the Bible is communicating then please refrain from commenting. If you want to challenge its view then at least attempt to be credible when you do so, learn its preface.
Feel free to disagree all you want, but first remember Proverbs 18:13.
He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him.
This is a true statement whether you believe the bible or not.
Next time you reach for an easy mark such as an out of context passage from the Old Testament just because it sounds crazy, ask yourself "Do I understand what I am reading?" As Luke records the Ethiopian Eunuch did in Acts 8. Maybe even pick up a commentary to see if that means what you think it means. Because perhaps as Inigo reminded Vizzini "I don't think it means what you think it means". Now obviously fact checking is more work, and you are not doing this for theology, this for a bit, so you are not going to worry about fact checking.
But then I am not going to laugh. Cheap shots are easy but informed humor is clever.
So yes comedian the Bible is an easy target, and nobody will threaten your life for it, but please study before you speak it will make your comedy better. As it is you sound like a kid who wants to fit in with the cool group, the one that has decided Christianity is out this season. And while it may be true that Christianity is out this season, the conversation still needs to happen among thoughtful individuals.
Christians welcome comedy but this was not that.
thanks
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